QUIKRETE Sand/Topping Mix (No. So, you have to use that if you want to use a Quikcrete product. to get updates on products, offers and all things I mean beat the hell out of it. Leave about inches of the drain bolts exposed. Maybe a weak answer is better than none at all. Packaging. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); Your email address will not be published. Is quikrete sand topping mix OK to use for pretty slope and custom shower pan? The amount of water used in making deck mud will depend on the water content of the sand you use. of Sand Topping Mix to which 50 lbs. What would be the potential problems with using 100% sandmix and water as deckmud? Mortar and cement are both popular in construction and DIY projects, but they are different. It doesnt need curing but carbonation. The suitable ratio most people use is one part of cement with four of sand. Mortar mix has masonry cement in it..doesn't work too well. Its most important function is to absorb shock. All the shower floor mortar mixes above need to have the same consistency to obtain the best results. Loose mortar is essentially the same thing as dry-pack only with more water. Your Get free, zero-commitment quotes from pro contractors near you. Deck mud is suitable for floor tiling. Just follow the mixing instructions on the bag and start with the minimum amount of water they suggest and work up from there. Deck Mud Calculator for Sakrete Sand Mix QUIKRETE Sand/Topping Mix (No. Do not advertise or try to compare pricing. What Should Be The Layer Thickness Of Deck Mud For Flooring? It is perfect for DIYers because it comes preblended and you can apply it between bricks without trouble. offers and all things QUIKRETE! I use five and a half parts damp sand to one part Portland. If you are going over concrete, mix some thinset up a little loose and trowel that over the concrete bed you put your mud down. It keeps your structures crack-proof and bounded for a longer duration. The easiest and most convenient way to get your mixture correct is to buy the quikrete sand and topping mix which is sold at all the big home centers. - Seal Cracks and Joints. information for homeowners andprofessionals. Deck Mud is a mixture of washed and graded plaster sand that has been factory blended. Although mortar contains cement, it is a mixture whereas cement is simply a binding powder. Quikrete sells Floor Mud in 80-pound bags that you can use for several projects. However, if you want non-cracking, sturdy walls that dont seep the leaking Water and stand tall, you should use Mortar. We use cookies to ensure that we give you the best experience on our website. Water is added to the cement-sand mixture and prepares a thin density mixture. Water reacts with the cement in the mix and mortar thickens. I use the premixed floor mix that is about a 5 to 1 ratio. Note how it holds its shape when clumped in the hand. On the other hand, the deck mud has completely different usability. For a 60lb. As long as the floor has between 2 and 3 inches of thickness at the thickest places and at least 2 inches of thickness at the thinnest, it will be enough. Wrap Teflon tape (plumbers tape) around the threads of the strainer then screw it into the drain holes flange. Main Menu The reason I ask, as an aprentice we always added more portland to sandmix to make deck mud. The sand and other material mixes should have three parts to one ratio. When To Stain A New Deck? You can buy mortar mixes by the bag which makes it more accessible than something like concrete. If youre looking for a bathroom remodeling company in the Mid-Missouri area wed love to interview for your project. Quikrete 50 lb. Well, the answer is simple. You must lay all varieties of pavers, tile, stone, and marble over a deep bed of deck mud. The consistency of Mortar is softer than Water. a workable mix is obtained Note - Final water content should be 8 - 12 pt (3.8 - 5.7 L) of water per 80 lb (36.3 kg) bag of Sand/Topping Mix. This one is strictly to describe the proper recipe for your mix. 40 lb. You want 5 parts sand to 1 part cement. Cut the membrane and install the upper drain plate. The materials used in mortars render the product unstable once the thickness exceeds the manufacturers' recommended maximum thickness. Thats why both have variable uses. Its most important function is to absorb shock. Best Wood For Decking: Which One To Choose And Why? It is much easier to use Floor Mud than Quikrete Sand/Topping mix because it comes ready in the bag. Continuing to mix the mortar will eliminate much of the clumping unless the cement content is too rich. Available in: 10 lb. Water is used to thin the texture mud. Measure and apply the waterproof membrane, 7. The consistency of drywall mud used is the key to creating a good stomp knockdown texture. So if you want to build lasting non-breakable flooring, use deck mud. Use silicone beads to coat the inside and outside of the bolt circle of the drain on the floor. Mix 1 part of Portland cement with 5 parts of fine sand. You can make your own shower pan concrete mix using sand, cement, and water. It will be best to absorb shock. Note also that We use plastic for our cleavage membrane, but felt paper also works just as well. Though these are cost-effective, interchanging them may cost you a repair shortly. It is always important to read the directions to find out how much water you need for a mortar mixture. Maybe these pictures will be a little clearer than those previously published. The mixture of Deck mud only includes cement and sand, while Mortar has lime Water too. Your shower needs a P-trap to keep sewer gases out of the house. Look how relatively clean my hand remains after clumping the mud. Advice and installation help at the John Bridge Tile Forums. Also Read: When To Stain A New Deck Pressure Treated? Sakrete Sand Mix is easy to mix, apply, and find at a local store. It is ideal to use mortar that contains both Portland cement and sand for a shower. Dont consider adding anything else. When you pack the deck mud in your shower floor you will be able to rake it into the shape you want by using short pieces of wood as straightedges. You can also use one part of cement with seven, six, or five of sand. Mortar is preferred for shower pans over other options such as concrete and cement given that it bonds better to other surfaces and is more moldable. Stir the drymix a bit with small shovel or rake to get the added sand fairly evenly distributed. Just like other types of concrete mix, there are DIY options. If you are using a pre-mixed product like Sand Topping Mix the sand will be completely dry. How do you fix the slope on a shower floor? After the grout is dry, install the shower panel and the other parts of the shower as required. The good thing about shower pans made from acrylic is that they save you the burden of grout maintenance costs. The best mortar for shower pans is a mixture of sand and Portland cement as it creates a water-resistant barrier that can support the weight of the shower unit and the users. This is how I mix mine its convenient. 30K views 3 years ago In this video I'm going to show you how we mix deck mud for a shower pan. Plus with that ratio, it is way easier to form and shape the mud. If you want to use Quikrete on a shower pan, youre probably a little hesitant to do so. Your ratio can vary from 4 to 6 : 1 but the 5 : 1 is what I use and find to be the easiest to work. Thus, it prevents leakage and seepage issues of the wall and keeps it fresh for years. I buy a couple 50-pound sacks of Play Sand, which can be added to the Sand Topping Mix to weaken it and make it more appropriate for shower floors. Richer or leaner mixes do the job, though, so dont panic if your mud is not ideal.. It will be sandy on the top. Measure the distance from the walls to the drain hole then calculate the slope to inches for every horizontal foot (1ft). Free Download! Your email address will not be published. Too much cement and the mortar tends to clump as you mix it. Are you planning for a DIY project and renovating your home? Although cheaper than the alternatives, theyre more likely to get scratches and stains. Thank you sooo much. Easy-To-Follow Guide! My application is building a concrete shower curb and base, to eventually be tiled. Heres why people like it: No sand mix is perfect, which is why its good to be aware of the issues that can arise from using the product of your choice. 4 to 1 flattens and levels an existing substrate before the installation of tile and stone. Use a latex additive to mix the dry deck mud instead of water. berprfen Sie unsere Programme; Menu . In plastering projects, it is necessary to conceal seams and enhance attractiveness. Subscribe now to get updates on products, Use 3 pressure-treated planks of wood at 24 inches to form the curb of the bathroom. Otro sitio realizado con deck mud vs sand topping mix Press J to jump to the feed. Fig 1: Section of topping concrete over existing slab. A little less or more Water will not properly fix your tile. Use a latex additive to mix the dry deck mud instead of water. At this moment, the Lime presence in the mortar mix enables autogenous crack filling in walls. Whether you're looking for a step-by-step guide on fixing an appliance or the cost of installing a fence, we've here to help. The house walls may start cracking after a mild earthquake or due to some pressure. So, whenever you put pressure on your tile, cracks form in the soft bed of deck mud. We used mortar for the pre-pan (the cement under the liner). The amount of water used in making deck mud will depend on the water content of the sand you use. It is not. Follow the instructions on the mortar mix to mix enough for the whole bathroom floor. Both Quikrete Floor Mud and Quikrete Sand/Topping Mix dont cost much yet theyre easier to work with and provide better results than DIY options. Deck and Mortar are valuable cementing materials, but inaccurate use can make them invaluable for you. Dry pack mortar, which is also called deck mud or floor mud, is a mixture of sand, cement, and water. It is also usable for decorative and molding purposes. This can improve drainage and make the shower floor level, and homeowners generally install shower pans with mortar. Learn how to clean a shower stall to keep it in good shape. High traffic areas where additional flexural strength is essential, it is preferable that you use deck Mud. Besides, lime content increases the plasticity of the wall by closing all pores so that Water doesnt seep through it. And used real dry mix to form the curb (so it would hold it's shape on the inside corner). 8610) for applications from 1/2" to 1 1/2" (12-38 mm). Heres how we do it over wood substrates. Deck mud contains three ingredients: regular portland cement, sand, and water. Plug the drain hole then fill the shower pan with water 3 inches deep then wait for 24 hours. Topping concrete is defined as a layer of high strength concrete placed on an old, worn out concrete surface to provide a dense, abrasion-resistant surface, to increase structural depth and strength of the base concrete. 60 lb. QUIKRETE Sand/Topping Mix is a mixture of Portland cement, commercial grade sands and other ingredients. Ultimate Deck Staining Guide. Deck mud and Mortar are vital for internal and external construction. Thus, if you want better results, never interchange them. It should have flowy consistency for proper handling. Use pressure-treated wood planks to create the bottom plates for the shower stall. Floor Mud is made of Portland cement and is just as useful for traditional flooring as it is for a shower pan. Whether using a pre-mixed product or sand and portland cement, it is important to dry mix the mortar before adding water. The mix will merely be damp just enough water to activate the cement and cause the hydration process to begin. Dry pack mortar is a simple mixture of sand, cement, and water. While we typically install a foam pan, it is sometimes necessary to go old school with a concrete. Yes, but in many cases, its not the mortar thats recommended for shower pans. 1103) consists of a uniformly blended mixture of That's why we always recommend adding more sand. Both deck mud and Mortar are pocket-friendly materials. dryer than sandcastle material. For other bag sizes, use HAND MIXING Empty Sand/Topping Mix bags into a suitable mixing container For each 80 lb (36.3 kg) bag of mix, add approximately 8 pt (3.8 L) of clean water. Easy to form, pack and slope as needed. QUIKRETE Available in: 50 & 75 lb bags Apply Over: Concrete Properly prepared wood floors Data Sheet Safety Data Sheet More From QUIKRETE The lath gets nailed to the subfloor with galvanized roofing nails. Its not the same thing, despite having Mud in the name. It has a thick sand-like consistency, thats why it is suitable for bedding floors and forming shower beds. 6-12 hours later you can fine tune your slope/smooth your efforts with the edge of a framing square. The metal lath provides a foothold for the mortar mix. As you install and shape your base, slopes, and shower floors you want to pound the mix with a wooden or magnesium float. Getting your mud mix correct is at the core of the proper method. Why Does The Mortar Start Cracking Early? It is for all types of paver, tile, and marble installations on floors and counter tops. You generally have to use mortar under a shower pan if the base is not level. While we typically install a foam pan, it is sometimes necessary to go old school with a concrete shower pan instead. One millimeter of carbonation happens in a month. Dont let anyone tell you that a latex additive or anything else is necessary. The mortar is mixed. With careful planning and attention to detail you can create a shower that will last for years without any problems. Coat the drain with cement and PVC primer, 4. Using the same measurements, cut a metal lath then also staple it on the floor. The shower pan needs to be installed correctly to support the weight of the users and keep the underlying layers from damage by the water. At a fraction of the cost, I chose to go with the Quikrete. This is already mixed at a 3 : 1 ratio. The home stores have products specific to tile baths, but I've heard many say using a Quikrete sand/topping mix works well. What Is the Variation Between Mortar and Concrete? link to What Kind Of Paint For Garage Walls. Therefore, it is handy and manageable. How To Tell If Your Shower Pan Is Leaking (Find Out Now! Please help me answer this question I have a lot of trouble solving it. A flat sand and gravel shovel works well when mixing on a flat surface such as a concrete slab or sheets of plywood. +Alternatives, Portland cement, graded sand, other components, Portland cement, commercial grade sand, other ingredients, Available in bags of 10, 40, 60, and 80 pounds. All rights reserved. Let the tiles cure overnight then apply grout in-between the tiles and around the edges where the tiles meet the walls. If not, it would have leaked either through a loose drain hole, punctures in the membrane, or the sides. Tile DIY Forum, Tile Professionals, Tile How-to's, Tile Advice, How to Tile a Shower Floor Using Pebble Tiles, Sealing Granite How to Seal Countertops and Showers, How to Install a Shower Pan Liner Tile and Marble Showers, 3rd Somewhat Annual John Bridge Forums/Schluter Systems Training Event, Technical Specifications and Standards for the Installation of Ceramic and Stone Tiles. Menu. Deck Mud Vs Concrete: Which Is Best And Where To Use? deck mud vs sand topping mix. I usually start with about 1/2 gallon of water and work up from there. Bathroom closets are often catch-alls for anything and everything remotely related to self-care. Ossiana Tepfenhart is an expert writer, focusing on interior design and general home tips. So what would be the problem with using 100% mortar mix? dermatologist salary alberta. Luckily, Quikrete Sand/Topping mix is readily available and comes in bags between 10 and 80 pounds. So, never use it in a humid environment or add a lot of Water. However, fill deck mud for at least half an inch for floors and shower beddings. 10 lb. The top of the 2x4 is a temporary curb only used for packing the shower pan. While tile is highly attractive, it also requires a lot of skill and care to ensure it provides a waterproof seal for the rest of the floor. Home. Wallpaper Naruto, Itachi, Sasuke, Sakura and Other Unggulan November 14, 2021 order now Cut backerboard to the size of the walls then place it on shims inches in size then fasten the screws to the walls with backerboard screws. But you might be struggling to figure out what kind of paint to use on garage walls. What kind of application are you intending on using this on? Depending on temperature, humidity and wind conditions, youll have from 30 to 45 minutes to get the mud placed and shaped. Make sure the plumbing is already carried out and the shower has a shower drain and a drain trap before installing the shower pan. You can also make mortar if you mix Portland cement, sand, and water. You just want it damp really. Plus, you need regular maintenance to ensure that the tiles stay in great shape. Ive written books that contain instruction for building showers, and others have written articles on the subject, so I wont cover that exercise here. Type of Mud. In other English speaking countries it might be called screed., Deck mud is made with clean sand, portland cement and water. var currentTime = new Date() Although you may have been led to believe that creating a shower floor from scratch is a very difficult thing to do, it is not. cardmember services web payment; is there a mask mandate in columbus ohio 2022; bladen county mugshots; exercises to avoid with tailbone injury; pathfinder wrath of the righteous solo kineticist However, as time passes, the remaining Water evaporates, and it starts hardening at a quick pace. The water content will also slow down curing and weaken your foundation. formation of sloppy grounds and tiled footings. mudset deck mud whatever you call it lol we did a lot of work in 3 days Thats it. Sand topping mix will be just fine to use. One popular product is Sand Topping Mix. you might be familiar with. portland cement, commercial grade sands and other approved ingredients. Measure the waterproof membrane such that its 9 inches larger than the floor on the sides and 16 inches larger on the curb of the bathroom floor. I will say this, though. Commercial Project Profiles | You don't need much water in it. Deck mud contains only sand, portland cement and a little bit of water. Feel the floor over the membrane then mark with an X over each bolt around the drain hole. Too much water will cause your mud to shrink as it cures and compromise the stability of your base. Apply a waterproof membrane on the wall of the bathroom such that it covers at least 3 inches of the membrane from the floor and parts of the wall. This is technically true, even if youre using a Tile Redi pan. Lime is soluble in Water. Apply a layer of mortar followed by a metal lath and another layer of mortar while maintaining the slope towards the drain. When i lived in utah deckmud was reffered. You want just enough water to dampen the mixture. Once the outer grade is established we use a straight edge to slope the perimeter to the bonding flange drain. However, the temperature should be optimal (21C), and humidity should be up to 55%. This ensures that its waterproof and has the required compressive strength to retain its shape and integrity when in use. Sand/Topping Mix. link to How To Organize A Bathroom Closet. You can see above the clumps that are created when water combines with the sand and cement. Call today to schedule your personal consultation (573) 289-1045Certified Tile Installer #1329https://www.ejflooring.comhttps://www.facebook.com/ejflooringhttps://www.instagram.com/ejflooring An expert and experienced builder and contractor know what cementing material to use. What's the difference between morter and sand mix? In this picture I have crushed the clump with my thumb. The Difference Vinyl Makes. If theres one thing that most people dont want to do, its making a massive mistake by using the wrong underlayment while theyre trying to put together a shower. EPAs guidelines on moisture control on buildings, Toilet Flapper Size + How to Measure & Replace, How to Paint a Plastic Bathtub + Best Paints, Are Vinyl Shower Curtains Toxic? Quikrete also produces Floor Mud which is an easy-to-use concrete mix that is perfect for shower pans. Use a sharp knife to cut an X over the bolts to expose them. To recap, deck mud is the mortar to use when building shower floors. This mortar mix was first used by Egyptians for wall plasters in the ratio of 1:1:6 for Lime, cementing powder, and sand. A combination of different materials can be used to create a shower pan whose qualities will depend on the materials used. The best concrete mix for shower pans is made by Quikrete. A sand mix is a specific type of mortar that's made of Portland cement and (yep, you guessed it!) Note: When using MAPEI's 4 to 1 Mud Bed Mix to create a slope, the consistency should be fairly stiff. Her interests include art and real estate investments. Evenly spread it out with a wood float then allow it to dry overnight. Sakrete Sand Mix and Quikrete Floor Mud are also great options, and you can easily apply either with a trowel. Required fields are marked *. You can create your own with Portland cement and fine sand (1:5) and 4 quarts water for 80 lb. It is also the preferred mortar mix for soft stone masonry (such as limestone). bags - 42 per pallet Use For Construction & Repair of Brick, Block & Stone: Barbecues Pillars Walls Tuck-pointing mortar joints. Type N mortar mix has a medium compressive strength and it is composed of 1 part Portland cement, 1 part lime, and 6 parts sand. Fat mud we would add lime and portland to sand mix. So better to use the right one and save yourself from extra expenses and repairs! The only Quikrete sand mix that you cannot use for a shower pan is Quikrete Deck Mud. per foot, but that is okay. Properly mixing and installing deck mud will create a shower floor that will last for years and years. MAPEI's 4 to 1 Mud Bed Mix can be mixed by hand using a wheel barrel and a shovel. Unscrew the bolts in readiness for installing the upper drain plate. Use as a base for laying flagstone and paving bricks Suitable for repairing and topping damaged concrete surfaces less than 2 in. The dry ingredients are blended together before any water is added to the mix. What Mortar to Use for Shower Pan: Mixing and Installation, 2. However, shower pan installations arent an easy thing. We use a self leveling laser to establish the perimeter grade of the shower. Startseite MEBW; Warum Sie uns whlen; Fcherauswahl die Schwerpunkte; Dozenten fr Sie da; Stundenplan Ihre Semesterplanung; Zulassung Wie kann ich mich bewerben? A couple of companies also make a mix specifically for shower floors and mud beds. Mix and apply dry deck mud Follow the instructions on the mortar mix to mix enough for the whole bathroom floor. But if youre installing a tile, make sure that the bed is 2-3 inches thick and becomes thinner toward the drain. IT was much more difficult to work with because it was sticky, and took forever to set. The consistency of Sakrete Sand Mix makes it easy to smooth out to get an even base, and it takes 6 hours to set. But you might be struggling to figure out what kind of paint to use on garage walls. When you pick up a handful of it you should be able to squeeze it without water dripping from it. What Are The Uses Of Mortar And Deck Mud? The mortar at left is made from 80 lbs. Deck mud is the mixture of sand and cement in variable ratios. It depends on the size of the shower floor. You want the mud packed very well with no voids. This mixture strikes the perfect balance between adhesive and durable. Although they have similar compositions, the difference between their consistency, application, and benefits might be slightly different and can lead to functionality distinctions. Do not consider masonry cement, which contains lime. Once mixed, you should be able to form a ball with the mix in your palm. I think 5:1 can be considered the median of the industry. Deck Mud is not meant for shower pan use and will harm your shower pan. Feel the area between the bolts then cut out the drain hole exactly around the hole and no larger. Plug the drain hole with a piece of cloth then pour the mix onto the floor. The benefits of using Quikrete Floor Mud include the fact that you can use it both indoors and outdoors, you dont need to calculate the parts, it provides a strong result (5000 psi compressive strength once fully cured), and is easy to form the desired shape of the floor. - Set Posts 60 lb. Portland cement is water-resistant and Quikrete Floor Mud is perfect to use as a shower pan. sand. bags of concrete mix are readily available at home centers, lumberyards and hardware stores. Once that is jammed under the flange, and the flange is level, the next step is to mix the dry-pack mortar. Built a frame of 2x6's on the outside of the curb. When mixed with water, it creates a smooth and water-resistant surface which is ideal for shower pans. We store towels, medicine, toiletry supplies, first-aid gear, massage devices, facial steamers, spare Painting your garage is a great way to improve the look of the space and make the walls easier to clean. After the mortar is dry (overnight), scrape off any bumps and imperfections on the floor then evenly spread a layer of thinset on it. It is also possible to install slide shims under your shower pan if the base is not level, but many homeowners and professionals use mortar instead. Despite everything thats been written on the proper way to make dry pack mortar, there still seems to be a great deal of uncertainty on the part of weekend warriors, and even a few pros have trouble with the concept. You can find Sand Topping Mix at Home Depot. On the other hand, Mortar has flowy viscosity for hassle-free handling. June. The layers of a thick bed of deck mud are suitable for all kinds of pavements, tiling, masonry, and travertine due to its thick consistency. I just throw the bags and water in the minute man and go. In lieu of a recommended mortar, it is possible to use Quikretes Floor Mud as a substitute and still get great results. Its important to realize that there are different sand mixes for different purposes. var year = currentTime.getFullYear() This piece is intended only to give you a close-up look at properly mixed deck mud and a feel for how the material should act when you place it. Mixing the deck mud consists of starting with sand topping mix and thinning it out with sand. Mark on the walls with a pencil 3 inches from the floor. I use to mix portland and sand but the the cement yard recommended the STM for one step only. Though your options are limited, Floor Mud is actually remarkably high quality. If it retains its shape but doesnt release water when squeezed or crumbles apart, its too dry and needs more water to be added. This is whats going to bond the pan to the house. I have therefore taken a few pictures of the mud I make, and I will explain the process once again. What Should Be The Ratio Of Lime In Mortar Mix? It also needs to be used with acrylic fortified for most projects, so even if itdidntharm your pan, youd still have to pay more to use it. Superior shock and stress absorption minimize internal shatters instead of transferring structural loads as loads may damage tile work. Smaller tiles are better at conforming to the slope of the bathroom than larger ones. Site Map | Customer However, that is not the only option and mortar mixes often vary between their contents and ideal use. Sakrete Sand Mix is made of Portland cement and concrete sand and is a popular alternative to the above options from Quikrete. It comes in 94 lb. Easy to make because it's just two ingredients. The best mortar mix for shower pans contains sand and Portland cement. For me, I use 1 bag (60 lbs) of sand mix, 1/2 bag (25 lbs) of play sand, and 1 3/4 quarts of water. I understand its counter-intuitive, but it really is normal. It has moisture control and shock absorbance. Therefore, while you technically can use Quikcrete, it doesnt mean thats ideal. Mortars cannot be used to level or patch a floor - ever! Download Download Download Volatile Organic Compound Download Calculator Go to solutions using 4 to 1 Mud Bed Mix Any homeowner can easily mix Quikrete/Sand Topping mix in a bucket. Next, cut a circular hole around the drain hole. Like Quikrete and such. Retired Moderator -- Wisconsin Tile Man & Musky Guide. Is this an acceptable approach? This blend offers a compressive pressure and strength of 21MPa. Sharp sand or masonry sand, on the other hand, is stored outdoors, and its water content varies with the weather. Press the tiles into the thinset in line with the slope of the bathroom. 80 lb. It is much courser than masonry sand, but masonry sand can also be used. The ratio of Lime in mortar mix should be equal to that of cement. Use 3-inch decking screws to fasten the bottom plates to the floor. Thats why you must wonder about what you want to build and the desirable results. It might also be called concrete sand or torpedo sand. If you are going to use Quikrete, please keep these essential things in mind: If your local hardware store doesnt have Floor Mud, do not get Deck Mud as a replacement. Quantity Calculator, Careers | Media Center | Tighten the drain hole bolts then fix any punctures using a patch of the membrane and glue. It is preferable to use multiples.